Description

Just a few pictures of my destroyed Apogee Full Range speakers. The speaker remains were expertly assessed and deemed a total loss... not even a consideration for rebuilding due to the massive amount of reconstruction necessary and severity of damage...  Note the one included photo taken of one or the pair taken just before crating them. They were in “ Very good and very good working condition”. Adverised price was $10,000, agreed upon sale price : $8000 plus additional shipping.
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    Comments 35

    222222&text=li
    Owner
    Not yet...Still...Was hoping he would realize what bad press it would be if I really started spreading the word / story much more... elsewhere... But I’m not holding my breath. I’ve spoken to several people who all feel the same way... It’s long overdue. 
    Stay tuned, and thanks for your interest. 

    lissnr

    222222&text=gd
    Any luck with getting your money back?
    B

    gdnrbob

    222222&text=li
    Owner
    Hello Jouri, Saving additional handling of the speakers by someone else is a huge positive. Listening to it first in this case, as in most, is also very important. Aside from the Full Ranges, the Scintillas and the Divas are close rivals for “Second place” in the Apogee hierarchy. Some would say the Scintillas by virtue of their sophisticated midrange / tweeter should be the pick while others give the edge to the Divas. Yes, much depends on other factors such as room size, amplification, and of course simply personal taste. I have heard them both and both have sounded pretty impressive or not especially so...In my opinion they both have high demands to sound their best and each should be explored before committing to either. 
    Reputations can not possibly suffice for such a decision.. and remember to be brutally honest with yourself while assessing. To make excuses for an unfortunately poor session is not facing reality. To feel rushed or pressured is also a bad scenario...remember these will be YOUR Long-Term companions and they need to be right for you. 
    On that note I have found the Duetta to be most ideal for me and my listening room. Reasons? :
    Not only are they simply the most fitting size (pun?) but they are naturally much easier to accommodate and truly sound exemplary when  properly powered and fed with appropriate electronics. As fussy as any Apogee can be before it sounds its best...the Duettas are more forgiving of less than ideal scenarios yet every bit as capable of sounding completely organic, truly lifelike, and simply spectacular when devoted attention to their care is made.
    I applaud your choice of Apogee speakers ... but as a long term owner of several of them over many years I’m simply encouraging you to experience more than one before you make your final decision... you’ll be much happier in the long run about your decision. 
    Please keep us updated and happy Lissn’n!

    lissnr

    Center
    The Guy lives 3hrs away from me over the border. I'm going to pick it up myself. I can make a downpayment to lock the speaker and see/hear the speaker beforehand. Or not. What Suits me

    jouri_knegt

    Center
    Hi Lissnr,

    Right now i'm on vacation in Portugal with the family.

    I Will be buying from a German gentleman. He had it redone in Austria (8 yrs ago) Klm4?!?! Anyways Graz Ribbons through and through. He never plays this set, so it's gathering dust for 8 yrs (he owns a 2nd set). I talked to him on the phone and can see the set in action before purchase. He sounds like an Audiophile, mail contact was very pleasantful.

    My living room is pretty nice. It's a square (listening place) of 18 by 18ft with an adjecent open kitchen (L room with the L horizontally on it's back).  8.10 high. 
    Amplfication: Higher Fidelity 138 monoblocks 275 watt 8 ohms 1 ohm 2000 watt. Threshold fet 10e modded power supply. Wadia 270 + Wadia 9 (classic and also modded). Rpi 3b modded

    I hope i can manege the Scintilla money wise. Because i need to.sell my Mirage M-3si's to make it happen. I heard the Duetta sig (redone by DIS in Germany 3 yrs ago i.think) a couple of weeks ago. Also for sale. I was taken by the midrange... It was a lot better than i'm used to (i own the Mirage M-3si @ the moment). Bass was meh, imaging was :) It was driven bv An all tube system. I loved the design and the physicality of the speaker. It was Timeless. 

    There's an upgraded Duetta sig with Mrtw 5 Graz Ribbons and external crossovers for sale. For a very Nice price. It was overhauled by 'henk van der hoeven'. It's the same Duetta from the HFA website. Moneywise it would be better, only i hate the red side of those....

    Man, but those Scintilla's keep calling me. Like some sirene ;) at sea. How childproof are those Ribbons anyway? I Saw someone put soms plexiglass sheets in front of Them. I'm bettin it's the last speaker i ever buy. I got one shot. 

    jouri_knegt

    222222&text=li
    Owner
    Hello Jouri, Thank you for your kind words. Yes it has been “Horrifyimg” .... a well chosen descriptor on your part. The hardest part of this whole ordeal is not simply the devastation of such essentially irreplaceable speakers, but the injustice of the seller taking absolutely NO responsibility, showing no remorse, and contributing absolutely no percentage of financial retribution at all. 

    Yet continues his business selling to unsuspecting buyers who will unquestionably face their own episodes of loss should any sale face less than ideal circumstances. Whether it be damaged goods, sub-par condition not matching the sales description, or any kind of issue with product he sells you,,, once he has your money it’ll never leave his hands again, that much you can count on.

    Remember in any/ every deal: Buyer beware. Take all precautions, Use PayPal and/ or major credit cards. Insure everything. 
    Unfortunately DO NOT TRUST feedback... ( which is SO sorry to say, but SO true). 

    My plans? I have no plans to “Move on” yet. We shall see...

    So... buying Scintilla huh. Wow! My best wishes for a safe and satisfactory purchase, 
    Would you mind sharing what amplification you’ll be using and your room dimensions. Is it original condition or has it been rebuilt by someone? Just curious about the details!?!

    Thanks for the post and please stay in touch! Best regards,,,,Lissnr



    lissnr

    Center
    Hello Lissnr,

    I too read your full horrifing account of this matter. And i feel for you. I couldn't Imagine how you are taking this. I would be utterly devasted...... 

    What are your plans audio wise/legal wise? Or have you moved on(also equipment wise)?

    I'm on the verge of buying a Scintilla. Which is a tremendous big deal for me. Because it's the Scintilla ;) and the $$$ These stories put me on edge......


    Regards,

    Jouri

    jouri_knegt

    222222&text=li
    Owner
    Hello sandpat, Good move on your part, you’re doing the right thing by giving this guy a wide berth.There are plenty of honest dealers out there who deserve your trust and business... he does not. 
    Yes, a power cord is an annoyance but honestly not uncommon so your friend made it through unscathed. 
    As I’ve been saying all along, a simple deal with no hiccups is an easy enough thing to do... his stockpiles of equipment can be tempting... but he will never lose if there’s a problem of any kind. A friend of mine had bought a high priced tube amp from him for a lot of money and was having issues with tubes blowing on it when he first powered it up. There was no help at all from our dealer. Turns out there were faulty caps/ relays/ etc that he was fortunately capable of fixing himself with his own out-of-pocket parts and his own considerable talent with such things. Meanwhile the amp was advertised as “Excellent condition”. 
    Another friend bought a pair of Krell monos from him and afterwards told me he would never deal with him again just because of his pompous character. 
    BTW both of these purchases were before my purchase so I should have been more wary.. live n learn.
    But as much as I would gladly carry on about why no one should deal with him... 
    Look at the picture. 
    No compensation 
    No apologies
    No nothing
    Enough said . Thanks for your support & pass the word..!
    He’s baaad news.

    lissnr

    222222&text=sa
    I googled a bunch of stuff and found the dealer.  I was planning to buy some Krell components from this guy but now I think I will hold off.

    It turns out that a colleague purchased a Krell amplifier from this guy and no power cord was included.  He didn’t pursue it but was a little irked wondering what else might be wrong with the amp.

    Thanks for letting us know as you are saving others some serious regrets handing over money to this guy.

    sandpat

    222222&text=li
    Owner
    Hello Bob, Thank you for your understanding and much appreciated input. Your viewpoint and approach is sound... My resolve is unflinching. 
    ... to be continued.

    lissnr

    222222&text=gd
    I have been following your story for a while and I completely empathize with you.
    But, to be fair, since you did not buy through Audiogon, the site owners really shouldn't be brought into this issue, despite the dealer selling on Agon.
    I tried to search for the dealers name, but came up short.
    Perhaps you can post this issue on another audio forum?USAM? WBF?
    I hope you can recoup your money. For that amount, I would consult a lawyer.
    Bob

    gdnrbob

    222222&text=li
    Owner
    Hello jawiseman, Yes, that’s exactly my point. I have had 3 lengthy entries on the Audiogon site explaining in full detail everything about this grossly unfair debacle and each one was promptly removed within hours of posting. There was even a brief retort by the dealer ( he has an online site where he sells from a warehouse in Florida) but he then again apparently pressed for removal of the entire post. 
    I have been a member on Audiogon’s site for over 15 years with purely perfect feedback of 89 transactions (267’score’) and pride myself on maintaining my reputation here as completely faultless and utterly trustworthy. My mistake was trusting this guy. 
    Unfortunately the so-called “ loophole” for all this is the fact that I did not learn of this sale through Audiogon directly but actually through a friend in Florida who visited the seller’s establishment and told me about the speakers he had seen there. I then went directly to the seller’s website and purchased through there, not directly through Audiogon. So, aside from the fact that he does maintain advertising / feedback on Audiogon... since I didn’t “Use them directly” they are disassociating themselves from this transaction. 
    Meanwhile all the feedback related to this seller is only a handful of POSITIVE ONLY as my negative remarks were quickly removed. 
    The irony there was someone had actually posted on the Audiogon site “Has anyone ever had any experience with This-Particular-Seller” (him!) and I was simply responding to that inquiry...
    Guess he didn’t care for how potentially devastating exposing my actual purchase experience might be to his future sales....
    So there you have it. 
    He’s still doing business as much as he had before he was driven out of New York for his shady and unethical business dealings as word-on-the-street is he literally bankrupt his brick and mortar establishment due directly from his “business ethic”.
    Now relocated in Florida he’s back to his same old manipulating, unethical, self serving tricks again making money off of unsuspecting, trusting souls being fooled right out of their checking accounts... 
    But... I haven’t mentioned his website here again have I? No sir... not his site  nor his name... so there’s no basis for removing this post is there...? I’m just sharing my story ... just trying to let all my fellow Audiogon counterparts... the ones who still like to believe that unethical people out there are truly few and far between.. just as I had always hoped... Well, sorry to say but they ARE actually there... sometimes hidden in plain site... 
    It doesn’t mean we shouldn’t believe in the inherent goodness of the vast majority... it’s just a reminder that the bad ones... also walk ... often in plain site... among us. 

    lissnr

    222222&text=ja
    lissnr, from your June 12 posting you made the comment "and Agon sees deeper pockets in his business than my individual self."

    It sort of sounds like Audiogon (who advertises so much about how "safe" using their transaction handling is) is in a conflict of interest as because they are worried about losing business, they are loath to assist you in this.

    Is this the case for you?

    jawiseman

    222222&text=li
    Owner
    Hello Brian, Yes, heavy and fragile make for “careful handling required”. Divas and Full Ranges? Wow! 
    I started with Mini Grands then tried Calipers briefly until I moved up to stock original Duettas.. Sold 
    them to a friend and moved up to another pr. of stock Duettas which were supposed to be ‘buzz free’ but weren’t so they were my first pair I sent to Rich. He did a great job on their refurbishing and I was quite content until a pr. of Diva Ultimates became available for a good price so I sold the Duettas and tried the Divas.. 
    Magnificent spkrs but I couldn’t dial them in to my slightly smallish room (13’x18’) where the Duettas had thrived....So... sold the Divas and finally back to Duettas again but this time as Ultimates...
    Just stupendous. Been dreaming of FR’s and finally found a pair meant for Rich but ended up in splinters.. 
    As you’ve heard from the story: still zero dollars compensation from the grossly unfair seller. But it’s still not over yet... 
    Thanks for your interest and support. Happy Lissn’n. 

    lissnr

    222222&text=br
    Wow, really tough break. As an owner of Apogee Full Range speakers I feel your loss even more. I admire them over all other speakers I’ve heard. Maybe you can find another pair, although their numbers are diminishing, from incidents such as this. I have sweated through delivery of well-crated Full Ranges and also Divas. These things are heavy and fragile, a tough combination. That’s no excuse for what happened to your speakers. When my Divas arrived several years ago I met the truck streetside. The driver used a forklift to move the speakers (shipped in their original factory crates) from deep inside his truck onto his liftgate. But he set them down with a loud crash, and managed to crack several pieces of the wood frame. This was right in front of my eyes, and in spite of the crates being liberal festooned with “Fragile” stickers. He got a proper dressing down from me, but seemed not to care. In the end the speakers were unmarred, and have played well for years. But you can’t overestimate the carelessness that can occur in the shipping industry.

    My refurbished Full Range speakers came directly from Rich Murray at True Sound Works. He built bomb-proof custom crates for each of them and stacked one crate on the other, strapping both to a pallet. Still, we insured for full value. They arrived in perfect condition.

    I hope your are eventually compensated. Keep us posted.

    brian_beck

    222222&text=li
    Owner
    Thank you CT....I have been back and forth on this site with the Agon staff because when the seller’s name was disclosed he didn’t want the negative [truthful] exposure crimping his business... and Agon sees deeper pockets in his business than my individual self. 
    Meanwhile I’m still not letting the $8465 he owes me fade into obscurity. 
    I’ve been looking into his business practices and have found he has an extensive history of unscrupulous, unethical and atrocious customer service. In other words, my case is par for the course if you are unfortunate enough to have any type of problem with a purchase. Afterall, it’s easy to garner positive feedback when simple purchase transactions go smoothly and uneventful... he’s a “Smooth operator” who’s been doing this all his life (sure fooled me). But any variation thereof, one that might require some degree of compromise or consideration and you’re out of luck because the almighty dollar [in HIS pocket] is his only guiding light. And he has never, ever, even offered some type of compromise. We’ll see what happens. 

    lissnr

    222222&text=ct
    I am speechless....so sorry for this. Can you say who is this seller?

    ct221933

    222222&text=li
    Owner
    Just received notice from the BBB referencing the case / complaint I have made against the seller that: 
    “After numerous attempts to contact the seller we regret to inform you that we have received no 
    response.”
    “ The Better Business Bureau develops and maintains Reliability Reports in our service areas. This information is available to the public and is frequently used by potential customers. In the case of your complaint the company’s failure to promptly give attention to the matter will be reflected in the report we give to consumers about them. 
    If you wish to take your complaint further, you may wish to try contacting the Division of Consumer Services at phone # .... or you can also try the Attorney General at phone # .... “.
    So, good advice would be to check with the BBB about ANY business you’re considering purchases from, (especially stereos and especially in Florida!).
      ‘To be continued.....’

    lissnr

    222222&text=li
    Owner
    Thank you Mike, Hearing your professional assessment of the packing is both appreciated and informative. You would think something this fragile, large, heavy and essentially irreplaceable, would have earned more care and attention through the packaging process. Not to mention: it should have been well documented for special insurance coverage to reflect such unique status. 
    But no, it wasn’t. I just received the check from the seller for $370....which was the default coverage of fifty cents a bulk-weight- pound paid by the trucking company. That doesn’t even cover the freight charges I paid the seller on top of the $8000. purchase price I sent him. 
    He just told me it wasn’t his problem... and “Oh well, life’s a bi.ch”. 
    Yup, sometimes it can be.

    lissnr

    222222&text=md
    WOW, sorry for your loss, i make custom audio stands. i sell on audiogon and other sites. this is a shippers worst nightmare. something bad happened which was the freight companys fault. However who ever built the crate should be ashamed of the selfs, this is the most unprofessional looking crate job i have ever seen. they should have hired someone with experience to build the crate. they should be crated to take some hard hits, if you ever been to a loading dock, it can be a busy place to say the least. You actually have to build a skeleton around]d the item that is to be shipped, so there is no chance the item can shift during transit, which can cause the whole crate to move and crash. i have built stands that are 400 lbs they have to secure to the crate and pallet to form one unit. the crating process takes me a day to do. the shipper has to remember these trucks are doing 70 to 90 mph any quick lane change cam cause a shift in the load. shame on the packer. in the second picture you can clearly see the 2x4 is cut in half to make a 2x2 really a 2x4 is $3.00. and as far as the the guy that made the comment about your speakers he should not be ashamed of himself too. good luck with your claim, Mike

    mdegeorgis

    222222&text=li
    Owner
    Hello lucidear, thank you for your helpful advice. To answer your key points: payment made ( at his request) from my bank checking account to his account with copy of check and info. paperwork in my possession along with note on check “Apogee Full Range speakers pd. in full”.
    He chose trucking company , I paid him to “Take care of all aspects of shipping” and he said he would take care of it all for the additional amount he asked for that I then gave him.
    I have not accepted the $360 and won’t because I don’t want this to appear finished. 
    The fine print in his lengthy contract has been modified since my transaction stating that [in even more certain terms] he has essentially no liability after delivery to the trucker... 
    It would be ideal if my local small claims were good up to $10k and can effectively reach out of my state.... I have attorney friends giving varying approaches. Stay tuned and thanks again. Lissnr

    lissnr

    222222&text=lu
    @lissnr 

    If I recall correctly the limit at small claims courts was going to be raised from  $5k to $10k many years back, don't know if that ever happened or not...
    But I also recall that in some jurisdictions you could file a claim in your home State (vs the seller's location) for a purchase from other States, and then if you got a judgement in your favor you could put a lien on the business in that other state.
    Also if you paid by a Credit Card or Paypal, you could file a claim with them too.
    Who chose the trucking co.? You or the seller? If the seller then I'm sure the responsibility rests with the seller.
    Even if you chose the shipper, you have to see if the court decides whether they (trucking co.) were your agents or not. 
    Also did you specifically tell the seller that you didn't want insurance? If not and the seller chose the shipper then it's between those two entities to solve the issue and reimburse you.
    Lastly, even though a long period has passed since your purchase, the court may look at the last date when the seller promised you updates or compensation etc. ...
    Go to your Local small claims court, or local free Legal clinic, or call a local lawyer to ask these questions.
    You could also google for an attorney in the Seller's location and see if they'd take your case for a percentage of the claim.
    I personally wouldn't accept the $350 or so from the shipper, cause that may release them from all obligations.
    Seek advice from a lawyer or legal clinic, do it soon and don't waste time...
    Best of luck 

    lucidear

    222222&text=li
    Owner
    Unfortunately no. No compensation whatsoever except for the previously mentioned few hundred dollars from the trucking company based on uninsured weight. 
    The seller relinquished all of his association with and responsibility for the safe delivery of the speakers I paid him $8000 for once he delivered them to the trucking company. Note I paid him several hundred dollars to cover all shipping and handling costs in addition to the $8K sale price. 
    After numerous requests to at least share part of the loss he offered absolutely NOTHING except: 
    [does audacity get any more blatant than this]:
    “ Significant discounts on any other future purchases I make from him!”. In other words... IF we can assume let’s say a 40% mark up on used items he’s selling... then if in the future I buy another twenty thousand dollars worth of equipment from him.. he’ll graciously sell it to me for only $12,000. and the ‘savings’ I made will be the $8000. he owes me. 
    What a sport!?!
    No... despite all my patient waiting [he told me it would take before the insurance company made their decision], the joke was on me.. he never took out insurance because in his mind it didn’t matter to him... he only had to get them TO the trucker.. 
    It’s not HIS problem after that... only the paying customer’s. 8 thousand dollars of my money clenched tightly in his fist and a splintered case of speaker scraps which were so wrecked they’re completely unsalvageable ‘on my doorstep’. 
    Justice sometimes sleeps.
    Happy Lissn’n

    lissnr

    222222&text=be
    I'm so sorry this happened to you.  It is unfortunate when something like this happens to beautiful equipment that is outside of our control.  Hopefully you were fully compensated for the loss so that you can pursue other options!

    Ag insider logo xs@2x abdf614339752151f5a39fd39f1fe03e3239f64f3035673d678ffc1d1b640bd3bearotti

    222222&text=li
    Owner
    Gee that’s nice of you to say....

    lissnr

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