Description

Just a few pictures of my destroyed Apogee Full Range speakers. The speaker remains were expertly assessed and deemed a total loss... not even a consideration for rebuilding due to the massive amount of reconstruction necessary and severity of damage...  Note the one included photo taken of one or the pair taken just before crating them. They were in “ Very good and very good working condition”. Adverised price was $10,000, agreed upon sale price : $8000 plus additional shipping.
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    Comments 26

    222222&text=li
    Owner
    Hello Bob, Thank you for your understanding and much appreciated input. Your viewpoint and approach is sound... My resolve is unflinching. 
    ... to be continued.

    lissnr

    222222&text=gd
    I have been following your story for a while and I completely empathize with you.
    But, to be fair, since you did not buy through Audiogon, the site owners really shouldn't be brought into this issue, despite the dealer selling on Agon.
    I tried to search for the dealers name, but came up short.
    Perhaps you can post this issue on another audio forum?USAM? WBF?
    I hope you can recoup your money. For that amount, I would consult a lawyer.
    Bob

    gdnrbob

    222222&text=li
    Owner
    Hello jawiseman, Yes, that’s exactly my point. I have had 3 lengthy entries on the Audiogon site explaining in full detail everything about this grossly unfair debacle and each one was promptly removed within hours of posting. There was even a brief retort by the dealer ( he has an online site where he sells from a warehouse in Florida) but he then again apparently pressed for removal of the entire post. 
    I have been a member on Audiogon’s site for over 15 years with purely perfect feedback of 89 transactions (267’score’) and pride myself on maintaining my reputation here as completely faultless and utterly trustworthy. My mistake was trusting this guy. 
    Unfortunately the so-called “ loophole” for all this is the fact that I did not learn of this sale through Audiogon directly but actually through a friend in Florida who visited the seller’s establishment and told me about the speakers he had seen there. I then went directly to the seller’s website and purchased through there, not directly through Audiogon. So, aside from the fact that he does maintain advertising / feedback on Audiogon... since I didn’t “Use them directly” they are disassociating themselves from this transaction. 
    Meanwhile all the feedback related to this seller is only a handful of POSITIVE ONLY as my negative remarks were quickly removed. 
    The irony there was someone had actually posted on the Audiogon site “Has anyone ever had any experience with This-Particular-Seller” (him!) and I was simply responding to that inquiry...
    Guess he didn’t care for how potentially devastating exposing my actual purchase experience might be to his future sales....
    So there you have it. 
    He’s still doing business as much as he had before he was driven out of New York for his shady and unethical business dealings as word-on-the-street is he literally bankrupt his brick and mortar establishment due directly from his “business ethic”.
    Now relocated in Florida he’s back to his same old manipulating, unethical, self serving tricks again making money off of unsuspecting, trusting souls being fooled right out of their checking accounts... 
    But... I haven’t mentioned his website here again have I? No sir... not his site  nor his name... so there’s no basis for removing this post is there...? I’m just sharing my story ... just trying to let all my fellow Audiogon counterparts... the ones who still like to believe that unethical people out there are truly few and far between.. just as I had always hoped... Well, sorry to say but they ARE actually there... sometimes hidden in plain site... 
    It doesn’t mean we shouldn’t believe in the inherent goodness of the vast majority... it’s just a reminder that the bad ones... also walk ... often in plain site... among us. 

    lissnr

    222222&text=ja
    lissnr, from your June 12 posting you made the comment "and Agon sees deeper pockets in his business than my individual self."

    It sort of sounds like Audiogon (who advertises so much about how "safe" using their transaction handling is) is in a conflict of interest as because they are worried about losing business, they are loath to assist you in this.

    Is this the case for you?

    jawiseman

    222222&text=li
    Owner
    Hello Brian, Yes, heavy and fragile make for “careful handling required”. Divas and Full Ranges? Wow! 
    I started with Mini Grands then tried Calipers briefly until I moved up to stock original Duettas.. Sold 
    them to a friend and moved up to another pr. of stock Duettas which were supposed to be ‘buzz free’ but weren’t so they were my first pair I sent to Rich. He did a great job on their refurbishing and I was quite content until a pr. of Diva Ultimates became available for a good price so I sold the Duettas and tried the Divas.. 
    Magnificent spkrs but I couldn’t dial them in to my slightly smallish room (13’x18’) where the Duettas had thrived....So... sold the Divas and finally back to Duettas again but this time as Ultimates...
    Just stupendous. Been dreaming of FR’s and finally found a pair meant for Rich but ended up in splinters.. 
    As you’ve heard from the story: still zero dollars compensation from the grossly unfair seller. But it’s still not over yet... 
    Thanks for your interest and support. Happy Lissn’n. 

    lissnr

    222222&text=br
    Wow, really tough break. As an owner of Apogee Full Range speakers I feel your loss even more. I admire them over all other speakers I’ve heard. Maybe you can find another pair, although their numbers are diminishing, from incidents such as this. I have sweated through delivery of well-crated Full Ranges and also Divas. These things are heavy and fragile, a tough combination. That’s no excuse for what happened to your speakers. When my Divas arrived several years ago I met the truck streetside. The driver used a forklift to move the speakers (shipped in their original factory crates) from deep inside his truck onto his liftgate. But he set them down with a loud crash, and managed to crack several pieces of the wood frame. This was right in front of my eyes, and in spite of the crates being liberal festooned with “Fragile” stickers. He got a proper dressing down from me, but seemed not to care. In the end the speakers were unmarred, and have played well for years. But you can’t overestimate the carelessness that can occur in the shipping industry.

    My refurbished Full Range speakers came directly from Rich Murray at True Sound Works. He built bomb-proof custom crates for each of them and stacked one crate on the other, strapping both to a pallet. Still, we insured for full value. They arrived in perfect condition.

    I hope your are eventually compensated. Keep us posted.

    brian_beck

    222222&text=li
    Owner
    Thank you CT....I have been back and forth on this site with the Agon staff because when the seller’s name was disclosed he didn’t want the negative [truthful] exposure crimping his business... and Agon sees deeper pockets in his business than my individual self. 
    Meanwhile I’m still not letting the $8465 he owes me fade into obscurity. 
    I’ve been looking into his business practices and have found he has an extensive history of unscrupulous, unethical and atrocious customer service. In other words, my case is par for the course if you are unfortunate enough to have any type of problem with a purchase. Afterall, it’s easy to garner positive feedback when simple purchase transactions go smoothly and uneventful... he’s a “Smooth operator” who’s been doing this all his life (sure fooled me). But any variation thereof, one that might require some degree of compromise or consideration and you’re out of luck because the almighty dollar [in HIS pocket] is his only guiding light. And he has never, ever, even offered some type of compromise. We’ll see what happens. 

    lissnr

    222222&text=ct
    I am speechless....so sorry for this. Can you say who is this seller?

    ct221933

    222222&text=li
    Owner
    Just received notice from the BBB referencing the case / complaint I have made against the seller that: 
    “After numerous attempts to contact the seller we regret to inform you that we have received no 
    response.”
    “ The Better Business Bureau develops and maintains Reliability Reports in our service areas. This information is available to the public and is frequently used by potential customers. In the case of your complaint the company’s failure to promptly give attention to the matter will be reflected in the report we give to consumers about them. 
    If you wish to take your complaint further, you may wish to try contacting the Division of Consumer Services at phone # .... or you can also try the Attorney General at phone # .... “.
    So, good advice would be to check with the BBB about ANY business you’re considering purchases from, (especially stereos and especially in Florida!).
      ‘To be continued.....’

    lissnr

    222222&text=li
    Owner
    Thank you Mike, Hearing your professional assessment of the packing is both appreciated and informative. You would think something this fragile, large, heavy and essentially irreplaceable, would have earned more care and attention through the packaging process. Not to mention: it should have been well documented for special insurance coverage to reflect such unique status. 
    But no, it wasn’t. I just received the check from the seller for $370....which was the default coverage of fifty cents a bulk-weight- pound paid by the trucking company. That doesn’t even cover the freight charges I paid the seller on top of the $8000. purchase price I sent him. 
    He just told me it wasn’t his problem... and “Oh well, life’s a bi.ch”. 
    Yup, sometimes it can be.

    lissnr

    222222&text=md
    WOW, sorry for your loss, i make custom audio stands. i sell on audiogon and other sites. this is a shippers worst nightmare. something bad happened which was the freight companys fault. However who ever built the crate should be ashamed of the selfs, this is the most unprofessional looking crate job i have ever seen. they should have hired someone with experience to build the crate. they should be crated to take some hard hits, if you ever been to a loading dock, it can be a busy place to say the least. You actually have to build a skeleton around]d the item that is to be shipped, so there is no chance the item can shift during transit, which can cause the whole crate to move and crash. i have built stands that are 400 lbs they have to secure to the crate and pallet to form one unit. the crating process takes me a day to do. the shipper has to remember these trucks are doing 70 to 90 mph any quick lane change cam cause a shift in the load. shame on the packer. in the second picture you can clearly see the 2x4 is cut in half to make a 2x2 really a 2x4 is $3.00. and as far as the the guy that made the comment about your speakers he should not be ashamed of himself too. good luck with your claim, Mike

    mdegeorgis

    222222&text=li
    Owner
    Hello lucidear, thank you for your helpful advice. To answer your key points: payment made ( at his request) from my bank checking account to his account with copy of check and info. paperwork in my possession along with note on check “Apogee Full Range speakers pd. in full”.
    He chose trucking company , I paid him to “Take care of all aspects of shipping” and he said he would take care of it all for the additional amount he asked for that I then gave him.
    I have not accepted the $360 and won’t because I don’t want this to appear finished. 
    The fine print in his lengthy contract has been modified since my transaction stating that [in even more certain terms] he has essentially no liability after delivery to the trucker... 
    It would be ideal if my local small claims were good up to $10k and can effectively reach out of my state.... I have attorney friends giving varying approaches. Stay tuned and thanks again. Lissnr

    lissnr

    222222&text=lu
    @lissnr 

    If I recall correctly the limit at small claims courts was going to be raised from  $5k to $10k many years back, don't know if that ever happened or not...
    But I also recall that in some jurisdictions you could file a claim in your home State (vs the seller's location) for a purchase from other States, and then if you got a judgement in your favor you could put a lien on the business in that other state.
    Also if you paid by a Credit Card or Paypal, you could file a claim with them too.
    Who chose the trucking co.? You or the seller? If the seller then I'm sure the responsibility rests with the seller.
    Even if you chose the shipper, you have to see if the court decides whether they (trucking co.) were your agents or not. 
    Also did you specifically tell the seller that you didn't want insurance? If not and the seller chose the shipper then it's between those two entities to solve the issue and reimburse you.
    Lastly, even though a long period has passed since your purchase, the court may look at the last date when the seller promised you updates or compensation etc. ...
    Go to your Local small claims court, or local free Legal clinic, or call a local lawyer to ask these questions.
    You could also google for an attorney in the Seller's location and see if they'd take your case for a percentage of the claim.
    I personally wouldn't accept the $350 or so from the shipper, cause that may release them from all obligations.
    Seek advice from a lawyer or legal clinic, do it soon and don't waste time...
    Best of luck 

    lucidear

    222222&text=li
    Owner
    Unfortunately no. No compensation whatsoever except for the previously mentioned few hundred dollars from the trucking company based on uninsured weight. 
    The seller relinquished all of his association with and responsibility for the safe delivery of the speakers I paid him $8000 for once he delivered them to the trucking company. Note I paid him several hundred dollars to cover all shipping and handling costs in addition to the $8K sale price. 
    After numerous requests to at least share part of the loss he offered absolutely NOTHING except: 
    [does audacity get any more blatant than this]:
    “ Significant discounts on any other future purchases I make from him!”. In other words... IF we can assume let’s say a 40% mark up on used items he’s selling... then if in the future I buy another twenty thousand dollars worth of equipment from him.. he’ll graciously sell it to me for only $12,000. and the ‘savings’ I made will be the $8000. he owes me. 
    What a sport!?!
    No... despite all my patient waiting [he told me it would take before the insurance company made their decision], the joke was on me.. he never took out insurance because in his mind it didn’t matter to him... he only had to get them TO the trucker.. 
    It’s not HIS problem after that... only the paying customer’s. 8 thousand dollars of my money clenched tightly in his fist and a splintered case of speaker scraps which were so wrecked they’re completely unsalvageable ‘on my doorstep’. 
    Justice sometimes sleeps.
    Happy Lissn’n

    lissnr

    222222&text=be
    I'm so sorry this happened to you.  It is unfortunate when something like this happens to beautiful equipment that is outside of our control.  Hopefully you were fully compensated for the loss so that you can pursue other options!

    bearotti

    222222&text=li
    Owner
    Gee that’s nice of you to say....

    lissnr

    They probably sound better now. Terrible speaker to begin with

    e135800

    222222&text=li
    Owner
    Thanks millguy_3, and all: it was an absolute heartbreaker... the shipping company has been the only source of compensation to date and only to the tune of a measly $360 based on the bulk dead weight of approximately 700 pounds ... at fifty cents a pound! 
    I’m cerainly one for counting all of life’s blessings and I’m always tremendously grateful and quite conscious of them... but shots like this can be demoralizing...Hard to believe but guess I’ll chalk it up as an unexplainable meant-to-be... or simply a bitter “Lesson learned”.

    lissnr

    222222&text=mi
    My heart goes out to you, lissnr.  It's a shame to see two pieces of audio history like these get wiped-out.  Hopefully, you'll get this settled and find another pair in short order.  BTW, to all the cynics and shipping geniuses out there, the buyer did what they needed to do here, note the bill of lading and take photos.  The delivery driver is almost never tasked with inspection.

    millguy_3

    222222&text=li
    Owner
    Before pictures are from when the dealer took his pictures for his inventory and on-line sales purposes...which is why the early date... they are legitimate and actual. Only thing is I had meant to download the picture once (it’s the same photo) but was a bit clumsy when I copied it to here by hitting it twice.

    lissnr

    222222&text=jo
    Presumably the before pics are from the dealer that sold him the speakers so who knows how long ago they may have been taken. It does seem a bit odd however.

    jond

    222222&text=eb
    Perhaps I'm cynical, but I'd be a bit suspicious since the "before" pictures are dated just over 3 years ago.

    ebnewman

    222222&text=li
    Owner
    The shipping receipt when the crate was placed on the ground was signed as “Subject to inspection due to crate being damaged”.

    lissnr

    Center
    If and only if you accepted the shipment in that condition, then I don't have sympathy.  If  the shipping box looked fine and this is what you saw when you opened it, then that is a whole different matter and I sympathize with you.  So, which is it?

    stereo5

    Center
    I am very sorry for your loss. Personally, I wouldn’t have accepted the shipment or the very least opened the crate for visual inspection.

    lalitk

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